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	<title>Comments on: Judging Weizen beers</title>
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	<link>http://brewingwithwheat.com/judging-weisen-beers/</link>
	<description>Now available at a book store near you</description>
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		<title>By: Kevin Pratt</title>
		<link>http://brewingwithwheat.com/judging-weisen-beers/comment-page-1/#comment-28</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Pratt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 21:30:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brewingwithwheat.com/?p=22#comment-28</guid>
		<description>For a judge, there are several obsticles to evaluating the style.  I agree with the previous comments that hold to overemphasis on a few key traits.  The best examples are more malt complex, but the phenol is in there acting as a substitute for hop bitterness in balance and finish.  Like most styles, there is no single defining archtype, yet often judges look for absolutes.

The main judging issue is that phenol tires the palate quickly.  I find that by the fourth sample, they seem to get sweeter and less complex because my palate changes.  By the sith, I know my palate has shifted, no matter how much water and bread I use.  

I often have to keep a reference sample (usually a decent scoring beer from early in the flight) to use as a recheck of my perceptions. If it seems sweeter than before, it must be my palate, not the beer.  I can then either slow down, reset my palate w/ bread &amp; water or just make the mental adjustment to understand there is more there than I am sensing.  

This does not mean to &quot;make something up,&quot; it means to be careful and fair to the beer.  

A big flaw in judge evaluations is to consider the style&#039;s flavor frame first, then take that expectation to the beer.  Judges should first just evaluate the beer.  State what&#039;s there. Be complete.  After noting what&#039;s there, THEN they should note the flavor frame and maybe what&#039;s lacking.

The verbage of BJCP guidelines are broad.  This has made many judges form opinions based on individual layers the guidelines allow.  However, it is the balance of these elements that really matters and characterizes the range of the style.  

Kev Pratt
BJCP GM I</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For a judge, there are several obsticles to evaluating the style.  I agree with the previous comments that hold to overemphasis on a few key traits.  The best examples are more malt complex, but the phenol is in there acting as a substitute for hop bitterness in balance and finish.  Like most styles, there is no single defining archtype, yet often judges look for absolutes.</p>
<p>The main judging issue is that phenol tires the palate quickly.  I find that by the fourth sample, they seem to get sweeter and less complex because my palate changes.  By the sith, I know my palate has shifted, no matter how much water and bread I use.  </p>
<p>I often have to keep a reference sample (usually a decent scoring beer from early in the flight) to use as a recheck of my perceptions. If it seems sweeter than before, it must be my palate, not the beer.  I can then either slow down, reset my palate w/ bread &amp; water or just make the mental adjustment to understand there is more there than I am sensing.  </p>
<p>This does not mean to &#8220;make something up,&#8221; it means to be careful and fair to the beer.  </p>
<p>A big flaw in judge evaluations is to consider the style&#8217;s flavor frame first, then take that expectation to the beer.  Judges should first just evaluate the beer.  State what&#8217;s there. Be complete.  After noting what&#8217;s there, THEN they should note the flavor frame and maybe what&#8217;s lacking.</p>
<p>The verbage of BJCP guidelines are broad.  This has made many judges form opinions based on individual layers the guidelines allow.  However, it is the balance of these elements that really matters and characterizes the range of the style.  </p>
<p>Kev Pratt<br />
BJCP GM I</p>
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		<title>By: Lachlan</title>
		<link>http://brewingwithwheat.com/judging-weisen-beers/comment-page-1/#comment-24</link>
		<dc:creator>Lachlan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 15:26:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brewingwithwheat.com/?p=22#comment-24</guid>
		<description>Hi Stan,

I don&#039;t claim to be any kind of expert but it seems to me that brewers vastly overestimate the importance 4-VG and isoamyl acetate at the expense of everything else.

I think malt character is the most important element of a good weizen, then esters, then phenols. Fresh weizens in Bavaria are almost always maltier than the homebrewed/microbrewed versions I&#039;ve tasted at home, and usually less estery and (much) less phenolic. 

Much like Karl, the simplification of esters especially worries me. Most fresh German weizens I&#039;ve had have pear/apricot/mango/tropical esters at equal higher levels than banana.

A beer dominated by clove and banana, no matter how &#039;balanced&#039; these two elements are, will usually be received very well when IMO the beer is a caricature of the (oversimplified) style guidelines as opposed to a good beer. 

I suspect a lot of this is caused by people basing their opinion of a style on what they can buy at their local bottleshop. Franziskaner and Schöfferhofer drunk on the other side of the world are not representative of the style as far as I&#039;m concerned, especially for a style where freshness is so important... but that&#039;s my criticism of most style guidelines.

Best of luck with the book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Stan,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t claim to be any kind of expert but it seems to me that brewers vastly overestimate the importance 4-VG and isoamyl acetate at the expense of everything else.</p>
<p>I think malt character is the most important element of a good weizen, then esters, then phenols. Fresh weizens in Bavaria are almost always maltier than the homebrewed/microbrewed versions I&#8217;ve tasted at home, and usually less estery and (much) less phenolic. </p>
<p>Much like Karl, the simplification of esters especially worries me. Most fresh German weizens I&#8217;ve had have pear/apricot/mango/tropical esters at equal higher levels than banana.</p>
<p>A beer dominated by clove and banana, no matter how &#8216;balanced&#8217; these two elements are, will usually be received very well when IMO the beer is a caricature of the (oversimplified) style guidelines as opposed to a good beer. </p>
<p>I suspect a lot of this is caused by people basing their opinion of a style on what they can buy at their local bottleshop. Franziskaner and Schöfferhofer drunk on the other side of the world are not representative of the style as far as I&#8217;m concerned, especially for a style where freshness is so important&#8230; but that&#8217;s my criticism of most style guidelines.</p>
<p>Best of luck with the book.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Hagglund</title>
		<link>http://brewingwithwheat.com/judging-weisen-beers/comment-page-1/#comment-23</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Hagglund</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brewingwithwheat.com/?p=22#comment-23</guid>
		<description>I have noticed the common perception among judges that a clove phenol is required when judging weizen beers .  While a number of commercial examples and yeasts produce these (clove) aromas, there are more phenols than just clove and a number of great homebrewed weizens that are not recognized because they are not clove-forward.  

I think an expanded discussion of the entire range of both phenols and esters that might be present or expected in wheat beers is overdue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have noticed the common perception among judges that a clove phenol is required when judging weizen beers .  While a number of commercial examples and yeasts produce these (clove) aromas, there are more phenols than just clove and a number of great homebrewed weizens that are not recognized because they are not clove-forward.  </p>
<p>I think an expanded discussion of the entire range of both phenols and esters that might be present or expected in wheat beers is overdue.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Korty</title>
		<link>http://brewingwithwheat.com/judging-weisen-beers/comment-page-1/#comment-22</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Korty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:02:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brewingwithwheat.com/?p=22#comment-22</guid>
		<description>There are some who will disparage a Weizen for having banana-like esters even when they&#039;re in balance with clove-like phenols.  There are many celebrated commercial examples with banana esters, and the BJCP style guidelines state, &quot;The balance and intensity of the phenol and ester components can vary but the best examples are reasonably balanced and fairly prominent.&quot;  So banana flavors, as long as they&#039;re in balance with clove flavors, are appropriate for style in Weizens, even if you don&#039;t like banana.  I think varying aroma/flavor thresholds among judges play into it, too; a judge who is more prone to detect esters than phenols might mark down a beer that another judge would consider balanced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are some who will disparage a Weizen for having banana-like esters even when they&#8217;re in balance with clove-like phenols.  There are many celebrated commercial examples with banana esters, and the BJCP style guidelines state, &#8220;The balance and intensity of the phenol and ester components can vary but the best examples are reasonably balanced and fairly prominent.&#8221;  So banana flavors, as long as they&#8217;re in balance with clove flavors, are appropriate for style in Weizens, even if you don&#8217;t like banana.  I think varying aroma/flavor thresholds among judges play into it, too; a judge who is more prone to detect esters than phenols might mark down a beer that another judge would consider balanced.</p>
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